Forking, and the future of this wikia

can you delete the forum post that Ultimate iPad Expert made advertising his new wiki which are explicitly against your guidelines thanks

Done. Thanks KVartzo. I will also be reverting other changes made today.

It seems I need to be more explicit than in my message above. So, to the admins and anyone else leaving this wikia:

• Please do not link to your new wiki on the main page of the Wikia version. We can agree a link to a blog post to help the community understand what's happening, but that won't be permanent.
• Please make sure that any messaging in blogs or other discussions clearly says that people have a choice to move with you or to stay
• Please do not post to users' talk pages with messages about the fork. This is spamming.
• Please do not try to delete pages, change fundamental elements of the site, or otherwise damage the content. The wikia should be left intact and available for the remaining community and for future editors to use.
• Please do not use the wikia to promote your new fork. This includes templates, notices or URLs on pages other than the announcement.

As we've seen already, when admins decide to fork it causes a conflict of interest. The changes made today were not for the benefit of this wikia, but specifically designed to help the new one. Making changes that are a detriment to this wikia, for the benefit of another site, is not the proper actions of an admin of this wikia.

If you want differentiation between the two wikis, the correct thing to do is change the other one. You can improve that wiki all you want, you cannot diminish this one.

Because of these problems, I am now asking each admin to make a decision. Are you moving to the new wiki? Or are you going to remain committed to this one. It's been said that all the current admins have decided to go, but I would like to know from each. That way, the remaining and future community of this wikia can make better decisions about the future of their site. Thank you.

I appreciate that your allowing us to at least explain to people where we're moving to (and by that I mean, we, as in the admins that are moving), as well as give someone the choice to come with us by presenting them with a link (so they can see where to go if they'd like to go to the new one, instead of being forced to stay here, because they couldn't find the new site).

@Ultimate iPad Expert, Sannse just said "Please do not link to your new wiki on the main page of the Wikia version" and you go ahead and place a link on the very top of it?! Can this charade be ended

Please @Sannse remove the link

I've been a lurker on this Wikia since I have my own site but will start helping to improve it.

Ok, you know what? Fine, I will remove the link.

But just know you're basically doing exactly what you're saying I'm doing. Not allowing people to have a choice. Without a link, they are basically forced to stay here, regardless of what they'd like to choose.

Ultimate iPad Expert: So how about we work out a fair post that we can link to from the main page a bit more clearly? (There is the forum one on there now, but that's low on the page so not very visible)

Join me on my Wall to work out something neutral and fair we can all agree to?

Thanks. :D

Wow, I didn't realize that you had gone ahead and added the link anyway.  And with an unagreed message too...

I think it's safer for the wikia if I remove your admin rights now. I will put an agreed message on the main page once we have discussed it and others have had a chance to comment.

I actually had put that there after your second reply above. I realize now that I misread it as "I could post a link to that post explaining why we were moving". I apologize.

Okay, thank you for apologizing.  I'm not going to replace the rights, as you have clearly said you are moving anyway, but I apreciate that it was a mistake. 

No problem. I wasn't expecting to get them back or asking for them back anyways.

I hate to seem so bothersome, just wanna let people know where some of us are going.

In order for the two wikis to stay different, I request that you all use a new wordmark/logo (considering the creator of the one currently used has come over to Gamepedia, as well as his wordmark/logo design).

So, I made a logo to use here, it even uses the name "Poptropica Wikia", which differentiates the two wikis in name, as well as logo.

I made two versions, this one that is the proper size for the wordmark:

And this one, that is a large version, for use elsewhere, like on the main page (on which I'd suggest you change as well):

As I've said, if you want the two wikis to be different, you should make changes to yours.

Any changes to this wikia will be made by the community here (once things have stabilized) and will be done for the benefit of this wikia. Right now, the suggested changes are about the new wiki taking this wikia's identity somewhere else. That's not a good reason for this wikia to agree to them. 

Okay, here's an update.

I have banned Ultimate iPad Expert for editing the main page on behalf of the new wikia. The main page is a "fundamental element of the site" and blanking templates used on the main page was a rather sneaky way of changing it. I've also removed admin rights from Legofan100 for similar reasons.

Although he went about it the wrong way, Ultimate iPad Expert is correct that a couple of sections on the main page now need updating. I commented out the main two for now, others can be discussed as needed.

Overall, the main question here is still for the remaining admins: are you intending to leave for the fork or continue on this wikia? Your community needs to know! :)

I'm leaving, but I will still be active on the fashion wiki, fanon wiki and community central.

Also, removing the poptropica help network stuff should not be considered abuse of rights being that the PHN is no longer affiliated with this wikia.

yeah actually I think that removing the "Poptropica Help Network" link would benefit the Wikia, since most of the links there are just links to sites owned by a former admin who is now working with the other wiki so they're basically sending people to the other wiki.

I agree with Jeteroo, the "Poptropica Help Network" tab is just a collection of links to sites that lead to the other wiki, so it should be removed from the navigation

@Sannse You see? It's a good thing for me to remove the PHN part of the navigation, not a reason to demote me!

Legofan, making the change without the agreement of those who are staying on Wikia, and because you feel it is helpful to your wiki, is a reason to demote.  But anyway, there's no need to argue about that, as you are leaving this wikia anyway, the removal makes no difference.

Others: I'll remove it now. Let me know of other changes you think are important to help this wikia

Edit: Oh wait, that was part of my last edit, I think? or was it another part you were talking about, Jeteroo and Poptropicool?

On the navigation bar on the top, the last tab, the one which says "Poptropica Help Network" should be removed

I think Legofan100 removed it but then it was put back

That's what I removed, and that's not for the advantage of the new wiki, it's because this wiki is no longer part of the PHN, and saying that it still is is not true, making it no reason for demotion, but it's up to you and as you are an experienced Wikia staff I respect your decisions.

Wait, what? What!? WHAT? Lego got demoted? Moving the Wiki is harder than we thought? UiPE's banned forever?

UiPE's banned....forever?

Sannse, 

I think how you (and the rest of Wikia) is handling this is ridiculous. We can't have any control over the logo WE created? It does not belong to you, we own it! Our design guy created it, he owns it. He has the right to say where he wants it (and he doesn't want it here). We also own the PHN, you have no say in that. If we don't want the link here -- IT WON'T BE HERE. This is ridiculous... you're making a Councilor want to quit Wikia. I'm supposed to be on your side, but that's not possible. 

ps: I have to say, I laughed my head off when you banned UiPE here for no reason. He was the man behind everything, behind building this wikia, the only reason you care that we are leaving. If it wasn't for him this wikia wouldn't be as successful as it is today. This is how you treat him? Treat admins like shit = get MORE MONEY!! I love how Wikia thinks. And someone was saying how we (and Gamepedia) is a corrupt - powerhungry company. Look in the mirror Wikia. 

I would like an explanation as to why you are making a simple move such as big deal?

-Chad (former Wikia lover)

Chad, please, calm down. Everyone's worked up and the last thing we need is more trouble. Sannse may be doing things we disagree with, but there really isn't anything we can do. I'd say we should follow what she says and not get even more worked up.

Jeteroo: I've made the change.

AwesomeOrange: my focus here is in making sure that decisions about this wikia are made by those who choose to stay. That's why I've asked that those who have decided to go do not make any decisions for this wikia at this time.

In case I didn't make it clear, I have absolutely no preferences over the logo. My only preference is that the decision comes from the remaining and future community, and is for the benefit of that community. My strong suggestion is that any major decisions are made after things calm down. But as I've already shown with things such as adding the link to the fork to my first post above, I'm trying to work with everyone here.

Also, please can you clarify the last part of what you said. It makes it sound as though I or someone else from Wikia called Gamepedia corrupt and powerhungry. Something I most certainly did not and would not do.

@AwesomeOrange89 Sorry but the Wikia is not doing anything wrong. People here just don't want you to use the Wikia to try and send us to your new site or make changes to the site. The moving admins are making quite a lot of changes considering you are not supposed to be here anymore. As soon as you decided to move you should have immediately quit adminship here and stop with any edits due to conflict of interest. The work here is not UiPE's work alone nor any other person, it is the work of hundreds and thousands of the community who worked on it on the Wikia platftorm.

As for the logo why not call the other wiki the "poptropica gamepedia" instead of changing here? geez

@Sannse wanted to bring to your attention admin "HPuterpop" who's been making changes to the wikia for the benefit of the other wiki including changing the logo and other sections despite the requests not to make those changes to the wikia. I reverted his changes but I think it's a conflict of interest that he is admin here.

@Sannse If HPuterpop was still a contributor, would you be against him removing the logo from this site? It is, after all, his graphic and should technically only be allowed wherever he pleases it to be. Does Wikia have any policies that dictate that all files uploaded on the site are Wikia property?

I think since he uploaded his file to the wikia then he basically released it to the CC-BY-SA license so it can be re-used and re-distributed freely anywhere with that license (including the wikia) Just like when I write an article in the wikia I cant later tell them that theyre not allowed to use it anymore. I think thats like the core principle of contributing to a wiki.

Wait a minute... Paul was permanently banned?! That is just taking this way too far. There is no way Wikia is being fair. Also preventing me earlier from removing this wiki from our own network, and in the end the community wanted that, so you did it. I'm sorry, but this makes no sense whatsoever. I might actually leave Wikia fully if we don't make some good agreement.

Can't we just make a freakin agreement to like take this site down as there weren't that many contributors before the move? I'm starting to really agree with Chad now...

The problem is Wikia thinks they own everything. They think they own all the photos, all the connections, all the users. Why should we change the Gamepedia wiki, and not this one? If it's you that wants us to be split, then you do the work to change the branding.

The wikia admin kindly agreed to put a message on the front page informing of the move and that was suppsed to be the end of story.

The reason we are still arguing is that even after the message, admins from the other wiki kept making substantial changes to the wikia in the interest of their new wiki and their personal agenda which is not cool. I suggest anyone who has moved to the new wiki go work there and cease with doing any changes to the wikia.

Others will take over here and along with the community continue to run the PopTropica wiki on Wikia as the best wiki for poptropica

We're trying to remove the freakin PHN stuff because this wiki is no longer part of it, also, there was no reason to permanently block Paul...

well the PHN stuff on the top has already been removed

Yeah and I was demoted for removing it earlier...

We were changing this wiki so that this wiki would have a new brand, as you wanted. If Wikia is so confident in their work, there should be no reason that we shouldn't be allowed to link to the new site. Let the community decide.

Hi, I was mostly away over the weekend, so am catching up now. Sorry for the delay.

Eleventhfret: Yes, if he were doing it without the agreement of the current community.

Legofan100: The point was not to make the change until the community wanted it. And all bans can be reversed, it's "indefinite" (as in it's not clear when it will end) not "infinite" as far as I'm concerned

AwesomeOrange89: The content is owned by the contributors and licensed to Wikia. We know we don't own it, that's why you are able to take a copy of the content (which we provide for you on request) and install it elsewhere.

Jeteroo: I agree. The changes need to stop. Despite me asking people not to make changes until the wikia settles and the remaining community is able to choose what to do, they are still happening.

AwesomeOrange89: The link to this discussion on the main page, and the link directly to the new wikia in my post above are all about that. But there comes a point when you have to make your own future and leave this wikia to its own future.

What it comes down to is you can't expect to control a wiki that you have chosen to leave.

Well next time I upload a photo on Wikia I'm adding a different license.

Also, removing the PHN stuff is not the community's choice - if we want to remove a site from our network, we can.

So let's try to sort this out.

I know you want the logo changed, Some templates have been changed (and now reverted) in a way that seemed only to be about making them less attractive. There's the image on the main page that's in dispute... Basically those seem to be aesthetic things and should wait to see what happens with this wikia in the future..

Then there are the sister sites.  It looks like one is easy, the active admins of poptropicafanon.wikia are all people who are leaving this wikia. So I assume you can speak for the community in asking for the removal of the sister site logo for that one.  

Who can speak for the other community?  I see there are several admins who are apparently not involved here.  Can you point me to (or start) a conversation about the decision to un-sister this wikia?

And finally (I think) we have the PHN bit.  What is left of that?  I see a link on the main page... it doesn't say this wikia is affiliated with the forum, but maybe that's the bit you mean?  Let me know and we'll talk.

(I'm leaving aside questions of admins here and the edits made over the weekend, let's get this sorted first)

I can represent fashion, being an admin and 'crat there, and fanon, being an admin there.

Regarding PHN, I was talking about how you removed my admin rights because of me removing the PHN tab from the navigation.

Regarding the logo, I think that this wiki should use the Poptropica Wikia one Paul made, since we didn't know that Wikia has rights to every picture, including the logo Andrew made...

Also, the link to the XAT chat on the main page should be removed.

If we approved the partnership, why can't we remove it (pointing to the Poptropica Fashion)?

Legofan100: to clarify, I removed your rights for removing the tab without asking the community. And after I had said that the departing admins shouldn't make changes. But moving on...

AwesomeOrange89: you approved it as members of the poptropica.wikia.com community. You are no longer members of that community, because you decided to switch to another (fair enough, your choice) so can no longer make those decisions for this wikia. However...

Legofan100: I'm not totally comfortable with one admin speaking for the whole group without apparent discussion.... but to try and help things stay calm, I will remove that part of the main page.

Okay, so the next thing is the Admin box on the same page.

Am I correct in understanding that all those listed there have decided to move to the new wikia?

AwesomeOrange89

Ylimegirl

TronX7

HPuterpop

Giant Bubbles

TheSlantedFish

Please can you confirm? Thanks.

Of course I'd love it if anyone is choosing to stay, but I respect your decision either way

I am moving.

• AO I'm not sure, although he has been talking about how Wikia isn't being very fair about the move, so he is probably moving.

• Ylime I'm not 100% sure, but she was making some edits here removing round corners (which was not something all of the moving admins wanted, and which even I consider just trying to ruin this wiki), so she is also probably moving.

• Tron just said he's moving.

• HP is moving, as he has been the main person regarding the move.
• Giant Bubbles seemed to be confused, and I have no idea.
• TheSlantedFish is moving, being that he/she has been active on the gamepedia site and is part of the Poptropica Help Blog, which supports the move.

About fashion, I am a 'crat there and AO runs it, so that should be enough.

About fanon, Paul (UiPE) and Andrew (HP) run it, and I am an admin there so that should be enough from there as well.

So due to the fact that some admins are moving to another site and still using the same source of information as this wiki does will make us have to change? Can someone please inform me more about this situation? Thanks.

Hi, no there is no reason for this wikia to change.  It just means that there are two wikias that are starting off with the same content, the will get different naturally over time.

The role of this wikia can remain the same, it's just that there's another wiki out there.  They can grow and develop independantly from now on.

One thing we do have to sort out is the admin list.  People shouldn't be an admin on both wikis, because of the conflict of interest, we need to sort out who should keep rights here (obviously, Giant Bubbles, anyone else?)

So, in other words, the wiki is now a graveyard that has been rendered obsolete.

Lovely.

Well, there's still hope for me to keep it alive. ;)

Well, you can't do it alone! I just came back from a pretty long hiatus and saw the condition the wiki is in, it seems to have sparked my interest in editing again, I've even taken a break from Second Life and started playing Poptropica on the daily just to double-check certain details XD Anywho, are there any new admins to help out yet? I was a little concerned about everybody taking off lol

Currently, I'm the only one. I guess I'll need some new admins to help out if I'm not there, but I'll see how I can handle this wiki by myself first.

New admins is a very good idea, but it's best to take it reasonably slow and make sure all is calm before adding them :)

I see that we forked. Sannse, I have had conversations with admins in the past and its because it seems PW's best route of success is partnerning with the developer of Poptropica Wiki and that the wikians here would probably be underage as very few people play poptropica at wikia age. 

They felt Gamepedia would be able to foster them more independently since Wikia has such a large amount, not as many immature editors and can help them specifically in gaining a partnership with Family Education Network.

I understand it's your job Sannse to try to keep wikis on Wikia that want to fork. It just seems that Wikia becomes very stern and mean about it when it happens and I wished there was another nicer way Wikia could handle it (perhaps a way that wikia could profit somehow or make the changes to benefit the community). I know Wikia cannot accomodate every wiki's indivual needs all the time and not apply certain things unless it applies to everything, but it seems like Wikia is willing to give a wiki the attention it needs when a fork arises. Some wiki's topics don't fit as well within the marketing cirriculm or are large enough (I myself experience that and was persistent and at least got a sincere consideration) to recieve that. It just seems a bit hypocritical when Wikia gives attention to keep them from leaving wikia, but not enough for them to stay on Wikia.

I am posting this, because I am unaware of how much you know about why the descion was made to fork. I do not plan on forking myself, an intregral part of Biblicalapedia's ministry I think is specific to the Wikia community.

I hope Wikia can consider ways to better handle forks when they arise